Discussion:
[mb-style] NGS guidelines
(too old to reply)
Nikki
2011-05-10 06:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the
guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but
it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than
nothing...
By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with
NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if
they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation
(still no official guidelines, two years on...)

You can see what we have right now here -
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not
been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or
change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in
?brackets like these? with some explanations. Obviously they will be
removed.

We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc
Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully
obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people
have had chance to try entering them in NGS).
Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't
been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let
us know.

Nikki
caramel
2011-05-10 08:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I wanted to "discover" the new NGS style guideline...
In my first page read
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, there
are some problems...

About the examples for capitalization:
"confusion the waitress" is not in lower-cases in MB but follows the English
rules (
http://musicbrainz.org/search/textsearch.html?type=track&query=confusion+the+waitress&handlearguments=1
)
and the problem of "artistIntent" always raise !!

The first multi-lines example is not so clear too....
in MB (
http://musicbrainz.org/release/aee61e32-40bf-43ad-b5ee-a7a6572e69a3.html ),
we find "Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates" instead of the
example.
The main title all-in-caps is here considered because it is a Japanese
release but the justification to keep this capitalization is discussable...
and it is the same about the use or not of Original Soundtrack.

It is better to use clear examples that match with the MB database records.

Olivier

2011/5/10 Nikki <aeizyx at gmail.com>
Post by Nikki
Hello,
As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the
guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but
it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than
nothing...
By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with
NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if
they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation
(still no official guidelines, two years on...)
You can see what we have right now here -
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not
been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or
change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in
?brackets like these? with some explanations. Obviously they will be
removed.
We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc
Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully
obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people
have had chance to try entering them in NGS).
Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't
been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let
us know.
Nikki
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
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caramel
2011-05-10 08:57:35 UTC
Permalink
I forgot to mention the third example in multi-lines....
The actual title of the release is "This Is the Modern World / All Mod Cons"
instead of "This is the Modern World and All Mod Cons":
The two songs are separated by a slash following the general rules even if
on the cover there is a "and" and the English capitalization is applied "Is"
and not "is".

Olivier

2011/5/10 Nikki <aeizyx at gmail.com>
Post by Nikki
Hello,
As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working on adapting the
guidelines for NGS. We wanted to finish before sending an email, but
it's getting rather late (sorry), so I figured something is better than
nothing...
By the way, the idea is that these guidelines will become official with
NGS and then people can change them as they would any other guideline if
they want to. We don't want a repeat of the release group situation
(still no official guidelines, two years on...)
You can see what we have right now here -
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style For the most part, we've not
been trying to change guidelines, except where things are added or
change because of NGS. Many of the pages have comments by me in
?brackets like these? with some explanations. Obviously they will be
removed.
We've tried to incorporate all of the current official guidelines. Disc
Number Style and Box Set Name Style will be deprecated, for hopefully
obvious reasons (we may need new guidelines for box sets once people
have had chance to try entering them in NGS).
Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't
been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let
us know.
Nikki
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
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Dr Andrew John Hughes
2011-05-10 20:54:51 UTC
Permalink
On 10 May 2011 07:39, Nikki <aeizyx at gmail.com> wrote:

snip...
Post by Nikki
Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't
been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let
us know.
Is this just due to lack of time? I think any discussion to drop/change these
needs discussion and, personally, I'd prefer we avoided doing it at
the same time
as the move to NGS. That's going to cause enough change on its own.
Post by Nikki
Nikki
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Andrew :-)

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Nikki
2011-05-11 22:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
Post by Nikki
Live Track Style, Featuring Artist Style and Versus Style still haven't
been incorporated. If any other official pages are missing, please let
us know.
Is this just due to lack of time? I think any discussion to drop/change these
needs discussion and, personally, I'd prefer we avoided doing it at
the same time
as the move to NGS. That's going to cause enough change on its own.
Mostly because we haven't figured out what should happen. Trying to
apply the current Live Track Style and Featuring Artist Style to
recordings is complicated because a single recording can be used across
a range of different releases, so something that depends on the other
tracks on the release (in the former case) or how it's credited on the
release (in the latter case) is tricky. For Versus Style, I believe the
issue was more to do with how much of it even applies in NGS.

Nikki
caramel
2011-05-11 07:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

The documentation page about "Works" are missing.

In this page
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are
talking about track titles.... but there are no more tracks titles in NGS
but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be
presented briefly.

Olivier
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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2011-05-11 11:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikki
Hello,
The documentation page about "Works" are missing.
In this page
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are
talking about track titles.... but there are no more tracks titles in NGS
but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be
presented briefly.
Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording
titles or work titles. For example:
Track title 1 in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6
(that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated
recording title in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b
Post by Nikki
Olivier
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
symphonick
2011-05-11 12:04:10 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 May 2011 13:22:22 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nikki
Hello,
The documentation page about "Works" are missing.
In this page
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are
talking about track titles.... but there are no more tracks titles in NGS
but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be
presented briefly.
Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording
Track title 1 in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6
(that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated
recording title in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b
Post by Nikki
Olivier
On Loading Image... they're the same field?
"Track_name"
caramel
2011-05-11 13:20:06 UTC
Permalink
So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the same
song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records,
link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the
different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate
version,...).



2011/5/11 Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren <reosarevok at gmail.com>
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nikki
Hello,
The documentation page about "Works" are missing.
In this page
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we
are
Post by Nikki
talking about track titles.... but there are no more tracks titles in NGS
but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be
presented briefly.
Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording
Track title 1 in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6
(that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated
recording title in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b
Post by Nikki
Olivier
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
_______________________________________________
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MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2011-05-11 13:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by caramel
So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the same
song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records,
link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the
different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate
version,...).
There *is* a justification: track titles are supposed to follow what
is printed on the release, while recording / work titles will be
standards.
Post by caramel
2011/5/11 Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren <reosarevok at gmail.com>
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nikki
Hello,
The documentation page about "Works" are missing.
In this page
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:kuno/Style/Track_and_release_titles, we are
talking about track titles.... but there are no more tracks titles in NGS
but recordings titles. The link between track / recording / work might be
presented briefly.
Untrue. There *are* track titles. They are not the same as recording
Track title 1 in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/release/df025315-4897-4759-ba77-d2cd09b5b4b6
(that I just edited for the example) is different from its associated
recording title in
http://test.musicbrainz.org/recording/46fed65e-5031-423f-998b-a3cda367e78b
Post by Nikki
Olivier
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
caramel
2011-05-11 14:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Ok seems clear... for new releases !

so no "artist intent" (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of
back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and
capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme understanding !
So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction.

And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?

Olivier

2011/5/11 Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren <reosarevok at gmail.com>
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
So if there are track titles, recording titles and works titles for the
same
Post by caramel
song, it really will be a big job to check and fix the database records,
link them through ARs (manually since there is no webservice yet), if the
different names differ without any justification (not a remix, alternate
version,...).
There *is* a justification: track titles are supposed to follow what
is printed on the release, while recording / work titles will be
standards.
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symphonick
2011-05-11 17:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by caramel
Ok seems clear... for new releases !
so no "artist intent" (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of
back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and
capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme
understanding !
So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction.
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."

I'm OK with moving old CSG to works and using that proposal (needs some
work) for track names. But we haven't had a RFC process yet & I haven't
seen Brian around lately, he's the champion for that proposal.

/symphonick
Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2011-05-11 17:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by symphonick
Ok seems clear... ?for new releases !
so no "artist intent" (at all) for recordings and works names, and copy of
back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors and
capitalization effects)... may be a rough and a bit extreme
understanding !
So the new style guidelines should reflect better this distinction.
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
?from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
I'm OK with moving old CSG to works and using that proposal (needs some
work) for track names. But we haven't had a RFC process yet & I haven't
seen Brian around lately, he's the champion for that proposal.
Brian is no longer involved in the style process. CSGv2 is currently
being worked at by caller#6, and you should probably contact him for
any suggestions / ideas in that front.
Post by symphonick
/symphonick
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
caramel
2011-05-12 07:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by symphonick
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should
be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is
proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.

About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.

About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.

Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages

In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of
CapitalizationStandardFrench<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_French>also
apply".. and the French capitalization is missing too.
It should be :
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French
capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)

For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer.... and
of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould
reflect this position.
Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of :
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
major and minor, Op. 14 "Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes":
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
obviously here :
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra,
BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
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Frederic Da Vitoria
2011-05-12 08:27:21 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
Post by caramel
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles should
be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it is
proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_French>also apply".. and the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French
capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer....
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra,
BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
believe there are 2 parts in a title:
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"

I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow that
language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. Since
Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of the
normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are
in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.

Once again, I am not saying using the composer's language is wrong, just
that it should be carefully thought before taking a decision, preferably
after entering a partial list of works by composers such as these.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
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caramel
2011-05-12 11:53:15 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
Post by caramel
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles
should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it
is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_French>also apply".. and the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French
capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer....
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur
et mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra,
BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie
are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...

But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum (
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and
many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.

I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Once again, I am not saying using the composer's language is wrong, just
that it should be carefully thought before taking a decision, preferably
after entering a partial list of works by composers such as these.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
-------------- next part --------------
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Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
2011-05-12 12:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by symphonick
Post by symphonick
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
?from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles
should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it
is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply".. and
the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply
French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ?? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer....
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification
should reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and
orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are
in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum
(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56
and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
I don't know if this was stating a fact or requesting a feature, but
there are aliases for work names already :) (and I would indeed use
the language used by the artist for the work name and add the rest as
an alias)
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Once again, I am not saying using the composer's language is wrong, just
that it should be carefully thought before taking a decision, preferably
after entering a partial list of works by composers such as these.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
--
Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
caramel
2011-05-12 12:11:56 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren <reosarevok at gmail.com>
Post by caramel
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by symphonick
Post by symphonick
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles
should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases
since it
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was
said on
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and
recordings
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical
because
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums
and
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings
(same
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in
German.
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for
the
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2.
Le
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing
while
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply"..
and
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply
French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one
composer....
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer
(with
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
should reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in
C
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
major and minor, Op. 14 "Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur
et
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and
orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do
so.
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part
of
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical
work
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie
are
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I
would
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one
of my
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent
too.
Post by caramel
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search
on
Post by caramel
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125",
I
Post by caramel
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge
the
Post by caramel
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at
the
Post by caramel
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum
(
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1
)
Post by caramel
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation
with
Post by caramel
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56
Post by caramel
and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to
discriminate
Post by caramel
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am
not
Post by caramel
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add
aliases
Post by caramel
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original
title
Post by caramel
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias
name.
I don't know if this was stating a fact or requesting a feature, but
there are aliases for work names already :) (and I would indeed use
the language used by the artist for the work name and add the rest as
an alias)
+1 (of course !) and if it is written in CSG, better !
-------------- next part --------------
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symphonick
2011-05-12 12:19:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:00:43 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by symphonick
Post by symphonick
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the
exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles
should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it
is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for
recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply".. and
the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply
French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one
composer....
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification
should reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and
orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are
in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum
(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56
and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to
discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
I don't know if this was stating a fact or requesting a feature, but
there are aliases for work names already :) (and I would indeed use
the language used by the artist for the work name and add the rest as
an alias)
+1

I assume that if we don't default to "original" titles, we would always
get partly translated titles derived from works? Let's say some of
Tchaikovsky's works are in French, but I'd have to somehow manually select
aliases if I don't want everything in French?
I'm just guessing here, it would be interesting to know how Picard would
handle this.

/symphonick
Samuel Barbaud
2011-05-12 12:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by symphonick
I assume that if we don't default to "original" titles, we would always
get partly translated titles derived from works? Let's say some of
Tchaikovsky's works are in French, but I'd have to somehow manually select
aliases if I don't want everything in French?
I'm just guessing here, it would be interesting to know how Picard would
handle this.
Well, that's a very important point, having a clean database with
titles in the original language and a translated alias is great, but
it's important to normalize how this is handled to have an automation
in the tagging of our favourite ID3 tagger.
I would love to have an option in Jaikoz/Picard to say that I want the
tagging in english or say romaji when I'm managing Japanese albums
(note that for languages requiring UTF8 the issue is even worse: many
players do not display properly the original language).

Regards,
--
http://transparency.org/ The global coalition against corruption
caramel
2011-05-12 12:35:01 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>
Post by symphonick
On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:00:43 +0200, Nicol?s Tamargo de Eguren
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by symphonick
Post by symphonick
Post by caramel
And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names
(strictly conform to standard) ?
Eventually no?
from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title
"Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner,
following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the
exceptions..."
Read it (proposal CSG v2)
Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles
should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it
is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on
this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings
titles are more "standard".
I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because
recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and
compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same
title as works) should be applied.
About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English
language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German.
Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case.
About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the
language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in
German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by
Arabian numbers.
Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin languages
In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'?t?, Op. 7: 2. Le
spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while
it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional
punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also apply".. and
the French capitalization is missing too.
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply
French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules
and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt)
while the work title could be
Les Nuits d'?t?, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto)
or
M?lodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 ? Les Nuits d'?t? ? : II. Le
Spectre de la rose (alto)
For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer....
and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with
still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by symphonick
should reflect this position.
Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C
III. Sc?ne aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur et
mineur, op. 14 ? ?pisode de .....
Same for Mozart and Bach : German language
Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and
orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der H?he"
it is better to write "Kantate f?r...." at least for the work title.
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie are
in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum
(
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1
)
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56
Post by Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren
Post by caramel
and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
I don't know if this was stating a fact or requesting a feature, but
there are aliases for work names already :) (and I would indeed use
the language used by the artist for the work name and add the rest as
an alias)
+1
I assume that if we don't default to "original" titles, we would always
get partly translated titles derived from works? Let's say some of
Tchaikovsky's works are in French, but I'd have to somehow manually select
aliases if I don't want everything in French?
We will have "problems" with Tchaikovsky (Russian/French/...?), Liszt
(Hungarian / French / ..?), H?ndel (German/Italian/English)... but always
there is a "native" language.

I'm just guessing here, it would be interesting to know how Picard would
Post by symphonick
handle this.
Wieland Hoffmann
2011-05-12 13:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by caramel
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to
discriminate our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch,
Moussorgsky,... I am not closing the debate here. And there is always
the possibility to add aliases for the work names. It is a pretty
solution to maintain the original title in its language and to add at
least the English translation as alias name.
AFAICS (Loading Image...) work
aliases don't have any attribute indicating "work_alias.name" is a
translation of "work.name" (or even the language used in
"work_alias.name") which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard
to automatically choose the "correct" language.
--
Wieland / Mineo
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Frederic Da Vitoria
2011-05-12 13:40:13 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 Wieland Hoffmann <themineo at googlemail.com>
Post by Wieland Hoffmann
Post by caramel
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to
discriminate our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch,
Moussorgsky,... I am not closing the debate here. And there is always
the possibility to add aliases for the work names. It is a pretty
solution to maintain the original title in its language and to add at
least the English translation as alias name.
AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work
aliases don't have any attribute indicating "work_alias.name" is a
translation of "work.name" (or even the language used in
"work_alias.name") which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard
to automatically choose the "correct" language.
I guess internationalization should be the next major step for MB. I wrote
"major" because this is definitely not going to be easy.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
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Nikki
2011-05-12 18:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wieland Hoffmann
AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work
aliases don't have any attribute indicating "work_alias.name" is a
translation of "work.name" (or even the language used in
"work_alias.name") which would make it hard to use this in e.g. picard
to automatically choose the "correct" language.
This file hasn't been updated since September, so there are some things
missing from it (I've asked Luk?? to update it, so hopefully we'll have
an up-to-date version soon :)). All aliases can have a locale (see [1]
for example) and once Picard has been updated to use the new webservice,
it should be able to use that information.

Nikki

[1]
http://test.musicbrainz.org/work/5f73a558-0ad8-3c93-b2a0-81c7da297af0/aliases
Wieland Hoffmann
2011-05-12 18:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikki
Post by Wieland Hoffmann
AFAICS (http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/-/images/5/52/ngs.png) work
aliases don't have any attribute indicating "work_alias.name" is a
translation of "work.name" (or even the language used in
"work_alias.name") which would make it hard to use this in e.g.
picard to automatically choose the "correct" language.
This file hasn't been updated since September, so there are some
things missing from it (I've asked Luk?? to update it, so hopefully
we'll have an up-to-date version soon :)). All aliases can have a
locale (see [1] for example) and once Picard has been updated to use
the new webservice, it should be able to use that information.
Thanks! That makes things certainly much easier.
--
Wieland / Mineo
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Frederic Da Vitoria
2011-05-12 13:36:36 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie
are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
JSB never heard of BWV, nor WAM of K :-) In many cases if we were to follow
ArtistIntent strictly, we should remove catalog mentions. And we should
restore archaic spellings too. For example some countries artificially
changed spelling rules at the beginning of 20th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthography, so should
19th century Portuguese Works be entered in their original spelling or with
modern spelling? Of course, this question would also apply to works by more
well known composers such as Marin Marais or Scarlatti. Once again, I am not
saying you are wrong, it certainly would be consistent with other MB rules,
but we should examine the consequences. Should we record Works using the
exact name the composer used (which would mean eventually checking on the
manuscript) or a normalized modern name? Or something in between. Frankly, I
don't know which to choose, there are arguments for each option.

But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
Post by caramel
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum (
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably disagree.
If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should be entered
in Cyrillic.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
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symphonick
2011-05-12 13:48:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 12 May 2011 15:36:36 +0200, Frederic Da Vitoria
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie
are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too.
If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
JSB never heard of BWV, nor WAM of K :-) In many cases if we were to follow
ArtistIntent strictly, we should remove catalog mentions. And we should
restore archaic spellings too. For example some countries artificially
changed spelling rules at the beginning of 20th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthography, so should
19th century Portuguese Works be entered in their original spelling or with
modern spelling? Of course, this question would also apply to works by more
well known composers such as Marin Marais or Scarlatti. Once again, I am not
saying you are wrong, it certainly would be consistent with other MB rules,
but we should examine the consequences. Should we record Works using the
exact name the composer used (which would mean eventually checking on the
manuscript) or a normalized modern name? Or something in between. Frankly, I
don't know which to choose, there are arguments for each option.
+1
I wanted an "as original as possible" approach, but we'll have to agree on
what's possible.
On "titlepage vs. canon", see for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldberg_Variations - org. "Clavier-Ubung
bestehend in einer ARIA mit verschiedenen Veraenderungen"
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on
Post by caramel
ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I
get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie,
Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the
works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum (
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and
many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to
discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably disagree.
If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should be entered
in Cyrillic.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
caramel
2011-05-12 13:58:28 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I
- the reference part, work type, catalog info etc...
- the "common name"
I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow
that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so.
Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of
the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work
should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie
are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not
saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would
have difficulties entering ??????????, ???? ????? works or linking one of my
albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously
doubt B?la Bart?k would be easier.
I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be
titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in
German,....
In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent
too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we
translate to English...
JSB never heard of BWV, nor WAM of K :-) In many cases if we were to follow
ArtistIntent strictly, we should remove catalog mentions. And we should
restore archaic spellings too. For example some countries artificially
changed spelling rules at the beginning of 20th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthography, so should
19th century Portuguese Works be entered in their original spelling or with
modern spelling? Of course, this question would also apply to works by more
well known composers such as Marin Marais or Scarlatti. Once again, I am not
saying you are wrong, it certainly would be consistent with other MB rules,
but we should examine the consequences. Should we record Works using the
exact name the composer used (which would mean eventually checking on the
manuscript) or a normalized modern name? Or something in between. Frankly, I
don't know which to choose, there are arguments for each option.
But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search
Post by caramel
on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op.
125", I get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours
Symphonie, Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job
to merge the works.
As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the
Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read
the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum (
http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1)
given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in
parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with
lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but
since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers
and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings
without works (eg.
http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer,
before to initiate the enormous work for the next months.
I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate
our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not
closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases
for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title
in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name.
You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably disagree.
If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should be entered
in Cyrillic.
Yes with aliases names in at least one Latin language. For classical
composers, there are lot of resources available (eg.
http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/) to know the original titles
and to choose between all "common names" found in the database. But it will
last months and more to enter all the information and link the recordings.

And as already said, there is no attributes about the language used for the
name, so it won't be straightforward to choose between the OT and all
alternate titles given as aliases.
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)
Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
_______________________________________________
MusicBrainz-style mailing list
MusicBrainz-style at lists.musicbrainz.org
http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
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Frederic Da Vitoria
2011-05-12 14:07:53 UTC
Permalink
2011/5/12 caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com>
Post by caramel
2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg at gmail.com>
Post by Frederic Da Vitoria
You prefer Latin script like me, but Russian users would probably
disagree. If we follow ArtistIntent strictly, clearly Russian Works should
be entered in Cyrillic.
Yes with aliases names in at least one Latin language. For classical
composers, there are lot of resources available (eg.
http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/) to know the original titles
and to choose between all "common names" found in the database. But it will
last months and more to enter all the information and link the recordings.
I don't think there is an easy and quick way to do it. The only sure thing
is that more we wait, more releases are entered and more work there is to do
:-) Now that NGS is here with Works support, we should go on. But you I
agree we must do it carefully. I believe/hope there will be new data schemas
better suited for classical music, and if we do it carefully we will make
the work for that next step easier.
--
Frederic Da Vitoria
(davitof)

Membre de l'April - ? promouvoir et d?fendre le logiciel libre ? -
http://www.april.org
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caller#6
2011-05-12 15:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikki
[snip]
Yes with aliases names in at least one Latin language. For classical
composers, there are lot of resources available (eg.
http://www.tchaikovsky-research.net/en/Works/) to know the original
titles and to choose between all "common names" found in the database.
But it will last months and more to enter all the information and link
the recordings.
And as already said, there is no attributes about the language used
for the name, so it won't be straightforward to choose between the OT
and all alternate titles given as aliases.
While the Work Title doesn't (currently?) have a language attribute,
aliases do. That might help. As a work-around, we could even add the
Work Title itself as an alias in order to indicate the language.

Oh, and though it's a bit late, I have a request. Could we try to keep
CSG discussions in their own threads, or at least change the "subject".
It makes it much easier to find those (these) discussion later (and of
course, it also makes it easier for non-classically-minded editors to
/avoid/ them).

I might start a #musicbrainz-CSG channel on IRC if anybody's interested.

best,
Alex / caller#6
Dr Andrew John Hughes
2011-05-11 23:39:41 UTC
Permalink
On 11 May 2011 15:07, caramel <caramel31 at ymail.com> wrote:

'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors
and capitalization effects)...'

Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the
mess that is Discogs?
--
Andrew :-)

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Nikki
2011-05-11 23:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors
and capitalization effects)...'
Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the
mess that is Discogs?
Correcting mistakes is ok, we're just not attempting to standardise the
titles.

Nikki
caramel
2011-05-12 08:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
and capitalization effects)...'
Please no. No, no, no, no, no. Do we really want to turn MB into the
mess that is Discogs?
Correcting mistakes is ok, we're just not attempting to standardise the
titles.
Why I prefer using MB that other database ? it is because, the track titles
are corrected, there is capitalization standards and good titles for
classical releases (a bit heavier... takes a long time to enter/correct
them). Up to now, we assumed that the style guidelines should be applied if
it is not proofed that there is an artist intent.

Now if one word is missing or weird capitalization is used in a track title,
It might happen for releases outside of the country of the artists... even
more for French, Spanish,... song names (no more accents, capitalization
standard and frequent spelling errors).
if we correct the "error", we standardise the titles in fact.
The exceptions should be for translated or transliterated names, and when
the song is renamed. Best example is "U2 - Pride", "Pride" is the official
title of the song... better known as "In the Name of Love".

The guidelines should be precise on that.
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Dr Andrew John Hughes
2011-05-12 13:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
'copy of back cover for track names (including spelling/grammar errors
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
and capitalization effects)...'
Please no. ?No, no, no, no, no. ?Do we really want to turn MB into the
mess that is Discogs?
Correcting mistakes is ok, we're just not attempting to standardise the
titles.
Why I prefer using MB that other database ? it is because, the track titles
are corrected, there is capitalization standards and good titles for
classical releases (a bit heavier... takes a long time to enter/correct
them). Up to now, we assumed that the style guidelines should be applied if
it is not proofed that there is an artist intent.
Same here (bar the classical stuff which I don't work on and thus
don't know too much about). To expand on my point, I can see cases
where you would want track names to differ
e.g.

* Crediting a track differently depending on the release such as
having Queen as a featured artist on "Under Pressure" for a Bowie
release.
* Allowing "The Detroit Spinners" to be used on UK releases rather
than "The Spinners".

But keeping something like Madonna being spelt Madona on a release
doesn't make any sense to me. This is especially true as most
consumers will get track-level only for the time being.
--
Andrew :-)

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caramel
2011-05-12 14:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
Same here (bar the classical stuff which I don't work on and thus
don't know too much about). To expand on my point, I can see cases
where you would want track names to differ
e.g.
* Crediting a track differently depending on the release such as
having Queen as a featured artist on "Under Pressure" for a Bowie
release.
* Allowing "The Detroit Spinners" to be used on UK releases rather
than "The Spinners".
In these examples, you are talking about artist credits more than track
names.

"Under Pressure" is credited to "Queen & David Bowie" in MB.
Post by Dr Andrew John Hughes
But keeping something like Madonna being spelt Madona on a release
doesn't make any sense to me. This is especially true as most
consumers will get track-level only for the time being.
I agree. But for example, I enter a release "Demis Roussos - 20 Golden
Hits". There are spelling error in French, grammar error for a Spanish, no
accents of course, and all words with cap as first letter. The corresponding
freeDB record is even worst. I corrected errors, put accents, changed the
capitalization accordingly to the title language of the track.
For me, I did a standardisation of the track names and did not follow the
back cover.
I prefer.

So the cases of different names between tracks and recordings would be very
very limited... except for translated and transliterated recording names.
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caramel
2011-05-11 16:01:34 UTC
Permalink
The differences between artist credits on tracks and artist credits on
recordings should be explained too

Olivier
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symphonick
2011-05-11 11:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikki
Hello,
As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working [snip]
I'm not sure it's a good idea w. only separate pages for everything; it's
a lot of clicking back & forth now. I'd like an overview of the concept of
releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic
stuff. As it is now, title formatting
comes first, and later we explain what a release group is?

Maybe something like:
1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview]
1. Release Group
2. Release
3. Recording

Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this?
symphonick
2011-05-11 12:08:17 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 May 2011 13:58:46 +0200, symphonick <symphonick at gmail.com>
Post by symphonick
Post by Nikki
Hello,
As you probably know, Kuno and I have been working [snip]
I'm not sure it's a good idea w. only separate pages for everything; it's
a lot of clicking back & forth now. I'd like an overview of the concept of
releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic
stuff. As it is now, title formatting
comes first, and later we explain what a release group is?
1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview]
1. Release Group
2. Release
3. Recording
Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this?
like a slightly modified version of
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Next_Generation_Schema
Nikki
2011-05-11 18:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by symphonick
I'd like an overview of the concept of
releases/release groups/recordings first. Or a page with all the basic
stuff. As it is now, title formatting
comes first, and later we explain what a release group is?
Right now we're missing documentation that explains what things are
(which wouldn't be part of the guidelines), which is part of the problem
(I'll see what I can do about that).
Post by symphonick
1. Recordings, releases and release groups [overview]
1. Release Group
2. Release
3. Recording
Really just brainstorming - maybe the quick start guide will solve this?
The quick start guide is supposed to do something like that, yes. :)

Nikki
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