Discussion:
[mb-style] Musical quotation/lyrical references (STYLE-348)
Rachel Dwight
2014-11-17 08:06:40 UTC
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I made a wiki page about this a while back.
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:HibiscusKazeneko/Interpolation_relationship_type <http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/User:HibiscusKazeneko/Interpolation_relationship_type>
This is commonly referred to as “interpolation” and in many cases has led to lawsuits. In recent years musicians have had to obtain licenses for the interpolated/quoted material, as seen in the liner notes of Bloodhound Gang’s “Hooray for Boobies” https://beta.musicbrainz.org/release/6159eedd-63f7-47ec-9714-546108f77576 <https://beta.musicbrainz.org/release/6159eedd-63f7-47ec-9714-546108f77576> (which I have yet to scan).
Huey Lewis' "I Want a New Drug" came up on shuffle a while back & I
noticed the guitar solo at the end quoted the lead riff of "Purple Haze",
and realized there's currently no AR to specify such a relationship, as it
doesn't really fit under any of the existing relationships. I started
typing up a new feature request & realized this could be applied to lyrics
as well, including indirect references, e.g. The Beatles' "Glass Onion"
referring to other Beatles songs like "Strawberry Fields Forever" and "I
Am the Walrus" (Megadeth does the same kind of thing in "Victory").
Not sure exactly how the new BDFL workflow is gonna go, but I figured it
wouldn't hurt to post a link to the feature request here for input as
well. :) Particularly, if this should be only for work-work relationships,
or if recording-work ARs should be added as well- I can think of a large
number of live recordings that include brief quotes from other songs that
seem too short to be listed as "partial live cover"... But then, in the
case of the Huey Lewis example, should it really be a work-work AR if the
shorter version (~3:32 radio/video edit; full version is ~4:46) doesn't
include the snippet? Or is "partial cover of" more appropriate there, even
if it is only a single guitar line?
AR proposal: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-348
Wiki (w/ classical & jazz examples): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_quotation
Huey Lewis' "Purple Haze" tease:

The Beatles' "Glass Onion": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Onion#Lyrics
Megadeth's "Victory": http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/megadeth/youthanasia.html#12
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Ulrich Klauer
2014-11-18 01:43:54 UTC
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This is commonly referred to as “interpolation”
Judging from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation_%28music%29,
this seems to be specific to hip hop, while the term means something
different in other musical areas. I'd therefore prefer to keep the
"quotation" wording.

Generally, +1 to the proposal (I already voted in favour of the ticket).

Ulrich
jesus2099
2014-11-20 15:24:59 UTC
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I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
<https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78>
* work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.
This links two works, where the second work is based on music or text from
the first, but isn't directly a revision or an arrangement of it.
This is used when a new work is based on or includes (
*
parts
*
of) another work. The works are usually by different artists. Common
examples would include classical fantasias and variation works, or when a
new song is based on a poem or the lyrics of another song. The new work
must be a new composition, not just an arrangement or the same music with
different or translated lyrics.
* Can also be used if a composer rewrites old material into a new,
different work, and you cannot say that it is a revision or an arrangement
of the old work.
* Do not confuse this with medleys, mash-ups, remixes, etc.
* Only use one version-of relationship between any two works. That is, the
second work is either an arrangement or "based on" the first work, not
both.
And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off
performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as /is a *partial*
recording of/.

No ?



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Tom Crocker
2014-11-20 17:12:55 UTC
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I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
<https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78
* work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.
<snip>
And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off
performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as /is a *partial*
recording of/.
No ?
Those are exactly what I've done in a load of cases. However, the
wording--"is *the* basis for"--doesn't reflect very well the idea that one
line has been nicked or morphed into the new work, particularly in cases
where lots of lines, riffs, etc. from many works have been merged into a
new work. So I don't know if the definition should be changed or the
wording. Similarly, I wouldn't really call one-off lines inserted in a live
performance of another song a partial recording of or a medley of (though
I've used these to record it in the absence of anything better).
So I'd like to see these relationships added, and hope we'd be able to
choose vocals and instruments on it too. If we could type in the lyric even
better :)
th1rtyf0ur
2014-11-21 02:10:01 UTC
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Post by jesus2099
I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
<https://musicbrainz.org/relationship/6bb1df6b-57f3-434d-8a39-5dc363d2eb78>
* work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.
"* is the basis for" generally implies that a much larger portion of the
song, if not the entire song, is based on the first. For example, "A
Lover's Concerto" (performed by The Supremes, etc.) is based on "Minuet in
G" by JS Bach- although the time signature differs, the melody is the same
throughout the entire song. In the example I give, "I Want a New Drug" is
in no way 'based on' "Purple Haze", save for a couple measures thrown into
the guitar solo at the end of the song. In this case the "quote" is a much
shorter bit in a song that otherwise has nothing to do with the original.
On some sites these are called "teases".
Post by jesus2099
And if you want to have a recording‐work (because it’s only on a one‐off
performance) AR you can link to the borrowed work as /is a *partial*
recording of/.
Yeah, I've been using the "partial live cover of" for that kind of thing-
just wondered if there was a more appropriate wording for it.

As for the "Interpolation (music)" wiki, the example given there of
"Ghetto Superstar" using the melody from "Islands in the Stream", this
isn't really a direct quote, and honestly seems to me to be more of a
"based on" relationship, since the chorus of GS directly uses the melody
from IitS, but with different words. Perhaps "quote" and "interpolation"
(and any others deemed appropriate) could be sub-categories of the "based
on" relationship.
practik
2014-11-21 17:34:07 UTC
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I've been dreaming of this relationship too, so thanks for taking action, 34
:-)

I'd suggest conceptualizing the relationship as broadly as possible. Caller
#6 came up with this wording a couple years ago in an edit discussion,* and
I've always liked it:

"[work] includes [lyrics|music] adapted from [work]"

I like it because when musicians do this, they usually rework the borrowed
material in some way. For example, the Smiths song "Hand in Glove"
includes the line "And everything depends upon how near you stand to me."
That comes from Leonard Cohen's song "Take This Longing," but in that song
it's "sleep," not "stand."

Maybe "Lover's Concerto" would be an example of the same thing on the
musical level (same melody, different meter). But my point is that if we
just call it an adaptation, or something equally general, then we capture
the essential information -- Work B includes some element of Work A --
without having to argue about whether that element is being quoted or
interpolated or whatever.

Or if people really want to argue, then maybe we could have subcategories
like you mentioned, 34. But I'd like the broad category to be selectable as
well, for editors like me who don't care to get that deep into it.

Personally, I'm mainly interested in seeing a work-work relationship get
created here. I'm not at all opposed to the work-recording version, but I'm
happy enough using "partial performance" for that one.

Patrick

* https://musicbrainz.org/edit/17141710



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jesus2099
2014-11-24 14:42:36 UTC
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Post by th1rtyf0ur
Post by jesus2099
I can’t remember where but I know I have already used * is the basis for
* work‐work AR for such a case.
I thought it was done exactly for that.
"* is the basis for" generally implies that a much larger portion of the
song, if not the entire song, is based on the first. For example, "A
Lover's Concerto" (performed by The Supremes, etc.) is based on "Minuet in
G" by JS Bach- although the time signature differs, the melody is the same
throughout the entire song. In the example I give, "I Want a New Drug" is
in no way 'based on' "Purple Haze", save for a couple measures thrown into
the guitar solo at the end of the song. In this case the "quote" is a much
shorter bit in a song that otherwise has nothing to do with the original.
On some sites these are called "teases".
You are IMO describing the *later version of* relationship, there.
And *is the basis for* is the missing relationhsip you seek, it’s just not
worded perfectly for you but it seems to me that you can use it and ask for
a better name IMO or additional attributes. :)



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caller#6
2014-11-20 17:54:16 UTC
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AR proposal: http://tickets.musicbrainz.org/browse/STYLE-348
Wiki (w/ classical & jazz examples): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_quotation
Huey Lewis' "Purple Haze" tease: http://youtu.be/3ZwQRCkKxNE
The Beatles' "Glass Onion": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Onion#Lyrics
Megadeth's "Victory": http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/megadeth/youthanasia.html#12
I've wanted to propose a "quote" relationship for a long time, but I
think it's worth taking a step back and looking at the different forms
of appropriation first.

The nav box at the bottom of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpolation_%28music%29 might be a good
starting point. I think we should be careful in choosing which terms we
want to use as MB relationships, given that it's kind of a spectrum with
lots of overlap.
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